Curse

Jetdoc · Mar 07, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Thank you SO much for giving us the rationale for the skill changes. This type of feedback is really appreciated by the community.

Bastian · Mar 07, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

It may be crap in any other PvP format, but here he's winning.

A few observations:
- player assassin >> heroes
- player assassin >>>>> moving heroes (they don't use skills while running, easy target)
- center morale boost > all other shrines -> he only needs to cap the center and one other shrine to win.

Mods may want to move these posts to another thread in the HvH section....

1. How is he winning? I can split 2 of my heroes to cover the shrine he is at. He can't cap, and he can't deal damage = pwnt.

2. Why do you have to split heroes to take care of the assassin? I can have 3 shrines capped with 4 (potentially 5) npc's. If the assassin is interested in teleporting everywhere by the skills on his bar, then let him. Chances are he doesn't have enough pure damage skills to outlast me or my npc's killing him. Interrupts would be a big thread as well against his self-survival skills. In general, it would be really leet to know when he has used a skill, and know the recharge of the skills to ensure a kill.

3. Let him have the center, if he has 3 defensive characters on the center, then I can cap the others and get random kills against a player capping shrines. If he wants to move his other heroes to cap a shrine with him, then the center will be left open for capping.

In general, I would expect to see much less defensive groups because of this change because of their lack of ability to cap/hold/do damage/movement...

Again, snares and speed buffs will be very effective, if not essential, in being able to do this properly.

I find it funny that you are speculating as to how these changes are bad, they were purposefully made to stop the defensive builds. I would be surprised to see defensive holding builds with 1 assassin ganker, it would pretty much spell insta-loss against a player with good tactics.

Zonzai · Mar 07, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Thank you Gaile. We appreciate the information.

furbat · Mar 07, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

You do realize what the mesmer's primary attribute is?

Wrong. Think about it. If you have an assassin that has capped the center shrine they get 2 pips for morale boost. If you hold the other 3 then you get 3 pips. An assassin is not going to be able to cap all 3 other points because my team of 4 will be pwning his ass - thereby netting me points for kill on the assassin for the time it took me to cap the points. Now I have greater kills and 3 pips of morale vs 2 pips. GG me. I would suggest bringing speed buffs and snares however.

While he is wrong on why SP sins will be stronger in this format, he is correct.

The thing is, SP sins can currently spike down a Hero while the team is moving before they can react to the damage. Hero AI is horrible while they are mobile. Heroes tend to react much better while the team is stationary.

I will give an example. Team1 is at shrine A. Team 2 is moving towards shrine A to attack team 1.

Team 1, flags his team to not move foward. While team 2 is approaching the SP sin on team 1 moves towards team 2. Teleports to the team 2 monk, unflags his team, and spikes down the monk. Often the monk will not even use a spell in defense even if you try and force cast a spell.

Some of this can be mitigated with player skill, but team 2 in this scenario is at a huge disadvatage.

Now if, the assasin is approaching a team standing still, this is not a problem at all.

Because heroes respond very poorly while moving, whether they are flagged to move or just following their human leader, it is very easy to use an SP spike to take out a monk while the team is moving. This is an issue with Hero AI and not assasins, but HvH is still flawed under this format.

An Ideal change would be to remove morale from the maps entirely.

Ekelon · Mar 07, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Ritualist

The following skills have changed:

Gaze from Beyond: increased casting time to 2 seconds.
Spirit Burn: increased recharge time to 8 seconds.
Lamentation: increased casting time to 1 second; reduced damage to 15..75.

When these skills were first implemented, they required the caster to be very close to a Spirit in order to use them effectively. We recently changed all such skills to work at a much greater distance, though they became too powerful. Our intention is for these skills to remain effective but not be out of scope with other damage-dealing options.

Wow, hopefully this means Rit Spikes will be slightly less powerful with the increased cast time at 2 seconds.

J3mo · Mar 07, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

And I was hoping the old HoH came back -_-'

Well some of the changes are ok tho

Sectus · Mar 07, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I like the changes to hero battle. But I'm getting a bit tired of seeing anet constantly beating up mesmers.

I don't really know how imbalanced Wastrel's Demise was in PvP, but it was cartainly an okay (note, far from imbalanced) spell in PvE which is now a ton weaker. This spell was supposed to be used with the timing of an interrupt, but now being 4 times slower I got a feeling it'll be completely random.

If they really wanted to nerf it I would suggest this change instead:
"Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell (up to 5 equipped spells)."

That would reduce the damage by 21 (at 14-16 dom), but it would have little effect on pve since monsters carry few spells anyway. And you would still be able to time the spell.

(original description:
Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell.)

Guildmaster Cain · Mar 07, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Good thing my spike team doesnt depend on those skills. Too bad anet keeps nerving the Ritualist Skill-builds, but they OVERPOWER the Ritualist Bosses, *looks at the Heket Rit Boss in Vabbi with the 420 dmg (!) Spirit Rift spam*. Or that Margonite one in Torment, or the one in Cantha with Vengefull. Seriously, of all bosses, I fear only the Ritualist ones. And now, our ritualist Channelers spike and Spiritspammer builds are being destroyed one by one.

Glad to see something shift in the Hero Battle department, now the nubs are being forced to cap the other shrines as well. HB were always short for me, usually won 90% within 3-4 mins, it will be even shorter.
Sadly, we still can not get consecutive wins, which really makes HB suck for me. Change this and it would be attractive to more people I think.

And forget about nerfing any other skills, except STONEFLESH! It makes too many people sick with a socalled 'god-complex' in their unimaginative, ripped off builds in AB. It is way too easy to counter, but I do not want to be forced to have an enchantment remover with me every time I play AB.

Those are my 2 cents about nerfs and AB.

frojack · Mar 07, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Good updates and a nice new way of dealing with adjustments. Telling people 'why' makes all the difference.

Rit spike (as much a fan of rit's as I am) was way too good. Definitely needed a nerf. Good call.
For the main skill update I'd really like for you guys to look at the Xinrae skills. A cost and recharge assessment would be much appreciated. Loved what you did to Kaolai. If you look at Mingson in a similar fashion that would be great. There's more (spawning attribute, spirit creation, etc.) but one step at a time I guess.

Discord is a quirky skill for sure. A 2 second cast is a bit much though. There are probably better options for adjustment.

All in all, this is a much better face for guys. These test weekends with feedback were interesting but the 'why' is far more useful and valuable to the community I think. Great work.

Bastian · Mar 07, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbat

While he is wrong on why SP sins will be stronger in this format, he is correct.

The thing is, SP sins can currently spike down a Hero while the team is moving before they can react to the damage. Hero AI is horrible while they are mobile. Heroes tend to react much better while the team is stationary.

I don't think you read the posts though.

If there is only 1 SP sin, then I will probably move as a group to gank the sin. as he moves about. Dash isn't going to save him because I guarantee you I will have both snares and speed buffs in my and my hero's bars. 1 SP Sin vs. me and 3 or 4 NPC's = GG.

If there is a sin that is using Shadow Meld or some other lame skills (remember shadow meld is an elite skill) then they will not be able to do enough damage to make me care, therefore, I split.

Either way, with 3 heroes holding the center and 1 assassin ganking, I will win. There is not enough 1 assassin can do to keep me from capping and holding all 3 shrines without giving me additional points when I kill him.

Keep in mind, this is all based around the 1 sin + 3 defensive hero meta that is prominent in HvH. Other builds would be a completely different story, but the point of the update was to stop the potential of the above mentioned meta.

Shmanka · Mar 07, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecko-

Oh please, dont be mad because your discord build that MATH was using to farm their way up the ladder got nerfed.

TomcruiseJr is 1000% correct. Its a gimmick build they deserve to exist, if your gvg build has condition removal that is OVER 1 seconds cast time your a horrible guild. Pure and simple, don't even give the argument of "I can choose what I want to play" because you don't it is a competitive environment if your enemies have Nuclear Warheads your not going to fight then with Slingshots and expect to win. Anything that is condition removal based which is massively played counters this skill. This includes: Draw Conditions, Mend Condition, Mend Ailment, Dismiss Condition, Restore Condition, Extiguish, Mending Touch, Signet of Malice... and the list keeps going. I see no justification to increase the cast time.

If you cannot beat a gimmick build you don't even deserve to TA.

This skill was overnerfed, everything else is completely justifyable thank you, even if the shadow prison nerf was so damn late, Mesmers abused Gale and you nerfed that but not warriors abusing shadow prison? Oh well I guess late is better then never.

Sakura Haruno · Mar 07, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

BoA isnt really overpowered and if it gets nerfed will just switch to another 33% attack speed boost. theres many others\. if experienced the frenzy/dash variant is good.

Bastian · Mar 07, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

TomcruiseJr is 1000% correct. Its a gimmick build they deserve to exist, if your gvg build has condition removal that is OVER 1 seconds cast time your a horrible guild. Pure and simple, don't even give the argument of "I can choose what I want to play" because you don't it is a competitive environment if your enemies have Nuclear Warheads your not going to fight then with Slingshots and expect to win. Anything that is condition removal based which is massively played counters this skill. This includes: Draw Conditions, Mend Condition, Mend Ailment, Dismiss Condition, Restore Condition, Extiguish, Mending Touch, Signet of Malice... and the list keeps going. I see no justification to increase the cast time.

If you cannot beat a gimmick build you don't even deserve to TA.

This skill was overnerfed, everything else is completely justifyable thank you, even if the shadow prison nerf was so damn late, Mesmers abused Gale and you nerfed that but not warriors abusing shadow prison? Oh well I guess late is better then never.

So, in your opinion, it is okay to nerf some gimmick builds but not others?

If you can't beat gimmick builds (like warriors using Shadow Prison or Euro-Spike) you deserve to not even play TA....

I mean, c'mon way to be completely hypocritical.

noocoo · Mar 07, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakura Haruno

BoA isnt really overpowered and if it gets nerfed will just switch to another 33% attack speed boost. theres many others\. if experienced the frenzy/dash variant is good.

If they use frenzy, they could die very very fast, and it is easier to counter them.

So, other examples?

Shmanka · Mar 07, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

So, in your opinion, it is okay to nerf some gimmick builds but not others?

If you can't beat gimmick builds (like warriors using Shadow Prison or Euro-Spike) you deserve to not even play TA....

I mean, c'mon way to be completely hypocritical.

There is a HUGE difference between gimmick and abused. The Mesmer Gale situation was out of control for the amount of gate time, it took only ONE character and ONE slot to make something possible for the other 7 characters to pull off. Aka Gale target spike like mad.

This was a problem with shadow prison, warriors do not care that a hex or condition is on them as much as the degree of knockdown or pure constant DPS. The hex and conditions are bonus. Nothing about Shadow Prison warriors and Euro Spike is "gimmick" Iway is Gimmick, Bspike is Gimmick, and Rit spike became the new "Gimmick". You did not see builds of 6 Shadow Prison warriors and people complaining. Shadow Prison had one thing going for it, stronger effects then 90% of the other snares in this game for 5 mana.
A very, perhaps too completmentary skill warriors could use.

Discord Spike is something that Shadow Prison is not, conditional. It follows the exact line of OG spike. Something must follow in order for the effect to come through. This is gimmick due to the fact that things must follow in order for it to even work, ex Iway needed pets to die and the battle to last longer in order for the effect of most skills to eventually have great effect. Discord Spike needs a condition on the foe, and after one spike the monks and support should realize condition removal is priority.

Conclusion: Shadow Prison is abused, not gimmick. Discord Spike was overnerfed. Just because there is a notation for a build, does not mean gimmick it means it has popularity. Eurospike abused all the gate times and easy access NF gave as options.

Snype · Mar 07, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

could you please fix this while your at it?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124822

It really ruins recovery as a skill

crimsonfilms · Mar 07, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

While I agree Discord was nerfed incorrectly, still many condition removals are not effective against it. Rotting flesh and such makes it more difficult than others would like you to believe. Yes you can still save the spike but with skills like Rotting Flesh and Enfeebling Blood and a built in energy management - two monks are easily overwhelmed by Discord spikes. Unless you will bring Martyr and/or Restore, the non elite condition removal is not enough to counter Discord.

I agree that the damaged should have been rolled back instead of the cast time increase.

Swift Thief · Mar 07, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Please move bloodsong back... and put Anguished was Lingwah in channeling, communing does not need to have two pain spirits.

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbat

An Ideal change would be to remove morale from the maps entirely.

I'd be all up for that. I am not liking the looks of this new change...I'll see how Hero Battles work when I get home.

The rest of this update looks fine, though.

Bastian · Mar 07, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

There is a HUGE difference between gimmick and abused.

While I agree with this, what are the criteria for that decision?

Quote:

This was a problem with shadow prison, warriors do not care that a hex or condition is on them as much as the degree of knockdown or pure constant DPS. The hex and conditions are bonus. Nothing about Shadow Prison warriors and Euro Spike is "gimmick" Iway is Gimmick, Bspike is Gimmick, and Rit spike became the new "Gimmick". You did not see builds of 6 Shadow Prison warriors and people complaining. Shadow Prison had one thing going for it, stronger effects then 90% of the other snares in this game for 5 mana.
A very, perhaps too completmentary skill warriors could use.

So, in your opinion, rit spike does not deserve the nerf because it is a gimmick and not abused? I find that difficult to swallow.

Additionally, SP is an Elite skill. I would be willing to suggest that because it is elite it deserves to be stronger than 90% of the other snares in the game.

Quote:

Discord Spike is something that Shadow Prison is not, conditional. It follows the exact line of OG spike. Something must follow in order for the effect to come through. This is gimmick due to the fact that things must follow in order for it to even work, ex Iway needed pets to die and the battle to last longer in order for the effect of most skills to eventually have great effect. Discord Spike needs a condition on the foe, and after one spike the monks and support should realize condition removal is priority.

The conditions for a Discord spike are not hard to create, especially amongst 8 players. Additionally, the conditions are not hard to spread, thus making them hard to remove. Of course, Discord is not nearly as threatening on actual players as it is on Heros. You have to remove conditions with the speed of infuse in order to prevent their spikes as it is instantaneous casting after the correct "conditions" are met. I don't think that Discord is even so much a spike skill as a really overpowered pressure skill. However, that doesn't mean that the changes weren't necessary. Consider some of the really good GvG teams that fell to Neo's Discord Team. I would say that I think there were better ideas for the nerf to discord, but certainly any nerf there was justifiable.

As for Iway, the pets didn't really make much of a difference. It affected 1 skill on everyone's bar, and could be replicated by having any one of your teammated die. Remember, there were 8 resses in IWAY for a reason.

I would also be willing to say that yes, SP is conditional. Most notably, assassins running SP usually rely on the hex to trigger off-hand attacks. Without the hex they are useless. Does this make the change to SP any less deserved?

Quote:

Conclusion: Shadow Prison is abused, not gimmick. Discord Spike was overnerfed. Just because there is a notation for a build, does not mean gimmick it means it has popularity. Eurospike abused all the gate times and easy access NF gave as options.

/disagree